High Grading: Why Your Best Bucks Never Reach Their Potential & How To Address It

Why can't you grow big bucks on your property? High grading might be the problem and you may not even know you're doing it! Selective buck harvesting is necessary when managing for age structure and trophy potential, but it opens the door to high-grading. Dr. Bronson Strickland, Bonner Powell, and Moriah Boggess explain why antler-based harvest rules often backfire. Thankfully, they also give some simple strategies to minimize high-grading while pursuing a blend of hunter satisfaction and trophy management goals for your property.

Transcript

Moriah Boggess: 0:01

Welcome to Wildlife Investments, where we discuss research, habitat, hunting, and land management with panel of leading resource managers. Wildlife Investments. Do you feel like your property hasn't reached its buck antler potential? High grading might be holding back the quality of bucks on your property. Today we're going to discuss high grading, describe what it is, how it happens, how you can avoid it, and can live with it. Today we've got three of us. We got Dr. Bronson Strickland, our resident deer researcher expert. Bronson, you ready to talk high grading?

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 0:46

Uh, this is one of my favorite topics. It is so impactful. So I think this is just really worthwhile and information. So I'm ready.

Moriah Boggess: 0:55

We've we've got an extra tall soapbox for you today.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 0:59

I'll get on it.

Moriah Boggess: 1:01

And then we got Bonner Powell, one of our resident management deer turkey experts. Bonner, high grading. I'm excited. Let's let's get after it. Same. And I'm Mariah Boggus, one of our uh another one of deer management habitat consultants, and we're ready jump into it. I think just to get the ball rolling, we must jump into what antler distribution looks like in the And let's just use like central Mississippi, for for scores.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 1:34

Okay, so what what a lot of people in in my and experience fail to realize is that deer aren't big or large antlered. There's absolutely a relationship with and age when you look at the population average. But when you look at the individuals that that age class, it follows a distribution and know, a statistician, which we're not, but would call that a normal distribution or what a lot of people say a bell-shaped curve. And that just simply means that most of your or individuals in this case are or centered around the average. And there are, when you deviate from the either positively or negatively, or better then there's going to be less and less And so the two tails of the bell-shaped curve, basically, in this case, when we're talking antler size, means there's very few individuals that are extremely large. There's very few individuals that are extremely small. Most of them are around the mean or the average, or the top of the bell and the bell-shaped What that means is depending on the age class depending on where you are in the US, there's to be a different average per age class. And where we're at in Mississippi, it even from region to region within our state. And so we can go from the southern third of state, the lower coastal plain, and the peak of that curve or the average may be about 117, 118 to 120. You get into most of Mississippi, it's going to be about 125, 126, 127. You get to our ag region or our delta region, it can be 135, 36, 37. So that is controlling for age. That would be the average of the mature buck class in those regions. And as we've probably talked about before, this is all just a function of food. Lots of food on the landscape over time, and populations have different antler size averages based on that. Now, the problem that we see other than or with deer density impacting nutritional I would say as significant of a problem that a lot of people miss and underestimate is the with high grading. And it is chronic, it is widespread, it is most everywhere. But because it's normal, because it is so people don't understand that it's going on. And high grading simply means that's that's a term. Kind of a forestry context is like a logger in and takes the best and leaves the rest, they come in and harvest the most valuable timber and leave the lowest quality. And then you come back to that stand five, 10, 15 years later, and you're left with a bunch big trees, but they're all of very, very low And someone that is an expert in that region and forestry can go, they can look at the species form of the trees, et cetera, and go, oh, this stand was high graded. That there's nothing of really high value left. And that is exactly what happens when you know what you're looking for with a buck population. And I can spot it, Steve Demaris can spot it. Anybody that learns what they're looking for can almost spot it instantaneously when you look at harvest data. And the way you spot it is that when you look at the average antler size of the bucks that are over time, and that essentially peaks at three years of age. We all know antler size does not peak at three years of age, but what that means is the very bucks, the bucks with the highest scoring are harvested at three, and then what's grows to four. And they're not much bigger, even though they're a year older. They had smaller antlers when they were and so they they maybe get a little bit bigger, but then the best ones there at four are and then what's left over at maturity is say, Why can't we grow big bucks here? All of our mature bucks, we can't get a buck over 120 inches at five years of age. That is symptomatic of a high grade of deer And it happens over and over and over

Moriah Boggess: 6:48

we shared that antler growth curve recently on our media, and we'll probably, again in the future, of a progressing through the age classes. And I know uh you and I were texting the other day that. That data, you know, some of that data came from um known age deer, some in enclosures, watching this deer age the year, some was free-range data. And just to go through those for everyone listening who haven't seen that curve, it's like 25% of their antler score as a yearling, close to 60% as a close to 80% as a three-year-old, right around 90% as four-year-old, mid-90s as a five-year-old, and they out around six and a half. And I know we maybe that's a good discussion for a day, but there can be obviously variation even how a goes through that growth curve. If they were born late, if they had an issue, um, you they were catching up as a yearling body, body or they had an injury, there's a host of things throw them off. But that the I guess the the steepness, what you're is the steepness of that curve, the slope, and the of that curve gets dampened severely in high-graded where you're not seeing those age, those age groups quite so much in antler size.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 8:11

Yeah, it it if you're thinking how to read a is is everybody has seen the antler growth and and it shoots up, you know, very steeply, then it just starts smoothing out, meaning the rate of increase gets less and less from to four to five. And then finally it kind of levels out at six, seven. What we see with an obviously high graded herd is it shoots up to three and a half, and then it's like a broken stick. Instead of having this smooth curve, it slopes over and flattens out at about three years of and that is just instantaneous high grading.

Speaker 1: 8:52

important to just speak to for a moment, just like kind of what causes high grading. I know I I've seen it a lot in the past in clubs uh where use, they have antler restrictions as opposed to aging you know, either prior to season with cameras or aging deer on the hoof, you know, they're more interested in, hey, the total antler score of this deer? And yes, you can kill it or no, you can't kill it when it you know, let's say 125 or 130 inches worth of antler. Uh, you know, the I've seen that in the past at least, that very much promotes high grading because the first thing gonna see is a 130-inch three-year-old, and he's gonna get

Moriah Boggess: 9:42

Yeah. Absolutely. And he's at an age where he's very susceptible to sporting good size antlers.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 9:51

Yeah. Um, and the good good point, Bonner, with that. That that may be the most common criterion now is a boon and crockett score, but it it not make a flip what it is. If it is an antler-based size dimension where you are not considering age, it will result in high grading. There is no way around it simply because you may set the bar really high and say nothing under inches or nothing under 140 inches. Um, there are going to be some exceptional deer that make that. And it doesn't matter if it's an a six-point rule, you know, whatever it is, always going to be some superstar young bucks meet that criterion and they get killed.

Speaker 1: 10:46

It would be like comparing me to Mike Tyson at 13 You know, I, you know, I wasn't a slouch, you know, as a but I I guarantee you I couldn't have held my own against Tyson.

Moriah Boggess: 10:58

There's a lot I would have got the pass as well, Don't worry. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:02

There uh there's just some some real physical specimens in world.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 11:08

well, here's the flip side to that, too. So let's say you're real ambitious and we we're not gonna allow anything to be harvested you know, let's say extreme trophy management situation. It's got to be 150 inches or better. Well, that's real good in that uh all the bucks that you harvest will be over 150 inches, gonna miss some opportunities because some of exceptional deer, uh, if you're in a region that can do it, you will have some three-year-olds that score 150, and that could have been your or that could have been your 190 at six age. Here's the flip side of that too, the of it. You're gonna accumulate a whole bunch of bucks that are never gonna get anywhere close to inches, and you're gonna keep stacking and and stacking those bucks in your population, to food limitation. Now it's not on the dough side of the herd. Now you're doing it on the buck side of the too. And they weigh twice as much as dough, not always, but so they're eating twice as much. So you got a you got a lot of food you're to bucks that are never going to get killed.

Speaker 1: 12:26

Yeah, and also just a ton of, you know, five, six, seven, seven points, six points, you know, that just hang around for a long, long time. I've seen a lot of that going on uh with a lot of clubs, you know, and that's exactly the inverse of higher grading.

Moriah Boggess: 12:43

I um I was thinking just now the the different kinds of rules, and maybe we can just kind of touch through these real quick that people use to try to regulate buck and we've talked a little bit about age and stuff. And the antler-based criteria are always the ones that are most popular and common because they're the easiest to police, you know, quite honestly. If you tell your, if you have a guest come and hunt and they and you tell them, hey, don't shoot anything it's five and a half, well, how much confidence can have? And if they do make a mistake, how accountable are they? And I that's something I know I've had that a lot with landowners. I'm sure you guys have too. And it really presents a dilemma for a landowner to make a rule that can be followed. And I think this is where, you know, we have to kind of talk through here the importance of some kind of criteria, whether that is very selective, like we use our strategic program, where we're looking at a different ages, we're looking at how much of his he's likely displaying, if he has potential to large, shooting some early, saving the very best for And then there's other people who maybe they don't to get into all that and maybe they can't handle telling three-year-olds from four-year-olds. I think if most people could get to that point, they be far better off than the antler-based criteria. Because, like we you guys were just saying there, having bucks that are into maturity will never be susceptible to harvest. Yeah, a 150-inch rule will do that. A 20-inch, or not 20-inch, that'd be kind of crazy, uh, you know, a 16-inch width rule. I've seen some really stellar adult buck or mature that never get wide. They're just really tight. They'd be 14 inches wide, straight up out. Yeah. Or um, or the points rule, you know, it's gotta have so many points. I think that's I think a lot of people are probably to shy away from that, but that was the old standby. You know, back in the day, eight-point or fit in a you know, type type.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind was the rule, you know, uh preserve all the 10 points. Uh, but you know, a lot of a lot of people have gone away that now. That's kind of a somewhat of a thing of the past.

Moriah Boggess: 15:12

And and even, you know, properties we work with, I we've all had this conversation, the the um, the value, the amount of value that sometimes is given to a frame versus an eight-point frame, and how not all frames are created equal. I know we've all seen Bucks at four and a half or three and a half is a 10-point that we'd say just get of him. He's not gonna ever be anything special. And standing next to him is an eight-point. And so it that has far more potential for for antler for because of his frame, because of his time length or whatnot. And so having those sort of criteria that are really essentially the easier it is to follow that worse it probably is for your buck population and causing high grading.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 16:00

Yeah. when you look, and you know, we've done this times, a lot, a lot of people have, uh, but try to find of a what what's the most reliable indicator? Is there an antler characteristic that is the reliable indicator of age? And Bonner, like you alluded to, the the easiest thing is points. Um, and that has the worst correlation with age, is the number of points. So unfortunately, the easiest thing to the worst correlation. The thing, here's the reverse. The thing that has the best correlation is one of the uh hardest things to precisely count, that's mass. And so you're you're just rarely gonna get buck with six-inch bases. I mean, it it just takes years to to accumulate that kind of mass. But it's hard to make a snap decision on is a four-inch base or a six-inch base? Um so what a lot of people will do as well is all right, I'm gonna hedge my bets on he's high but very narrow, or he's really wide, you and so you you you gotta meet uh two criteria. X X amount of points and spread, or X amount of points and beam, or spread and beam. And if you can check off two of those, you the likelihood that you're making a good But even then, there there are always And so what we're always trying to do, whether we're doing it and helping a hunting club or general education, as soon as you get to a where you can age on the hoof, your your buck to the next level.

Speaker 1: 17:44

Yeah. And I and I will say, I mean, even for me sometimes, some of the some of the rules that that different clubs use and even some of the aging on the hoof, you know, depending on of time of year and everything else, can be very You know, for example, you can't shoot anything unless it's five and a half, unless it has less than seven points, uh, then you can shoot it no matter how old it is, you know, or you can shoot them if they're sub, you know, 130 and plus six years old, you know, they're getting ancient. Uh, and that's that's one thing that I've seen that that that people that aren't biologists are really, really good They can tell you uh what a very, very young deer looks like, and they could tell you what a very, very old deer looks Like if I if we put up a picture of an eight-year-old deer, almost every person that hunts would look at that and be that's that's an old buck. That is an old buck. I'd be like, yeah, you're right. But what gets really, really hairy is that four and uh, especially, you know, the in-between there. Uh, I mean, that even gets hairy for us sometimes, you when we're aging. Uh, and one of the things that I've seen that's just helped clubs immensely is just kind of our our camera surveys that we do for folks uh with the hit list that we produce, just like, hey, uh, you know, this is what we think, this is how old we estimate that this deer is, uh, based on body uh, not antler characteristics, but based on body Uh, and then just being able to have that as a resource, if you have guests where it's something you can send over a PDF to their phone or give them a little booklet and say, look, if you see one of these bucks on the harvest list, get him, you know. And if not, you know, we just ask that you pass that pass deer. Uh, that's something that, you know, we do for a lot of that helps immensely.

Moriah Boggess: 19:41

Yeah. Creates accountability. Yeah. That's that's so important. You know, one thing about the high grading issue that I think is so unique is when we talk about habitat or deer population size or Any of the many downfalls or limitations on a lot of properties, if you're 90% of the way there or you mess up once in a while, you don't hit your goals, you don't get that stand burn, whatever, you can still have stellar habitat, a great hunting you know. But when it comes to high grading and making harvest honestly, the small what might seem like the smallest Oh, we only misharvested one deer this year, two year. That was the deer. If that deer that your cousin, you let Hunt come and and he got a wild hare, and Jimmy went in there and he shot that 140-inch, 145-inch three-year-old, well, that was your future 170. I mean, make no bones about it. That that's how that's how sensitive this is. And I think that's why. Yeah, that that's him. That's him. And if you mess it up, then it's, you know, you gotta a couple years for that deer to come another deer.

Speaker 1: 21:06

It's hard to breathe life back into them. That's for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 21:11

Yeah, I I try to um I I guess make make people aware of how important it is. And and the the number here would be related to property size, of course. How big is the deer population and so forth. But generally speaking, on your your it it's literally uh success or failure is be on about three bucks. Now, if you're on a really, really big, you you're a big 10,000 acre property, that might be five or six. But that is literally success or failure, are hypersensitive two or three deer get killed. And you got to be thoughtful about this as well, is those two and three-year-olds that are they're very visible, they get everybody's They're also relatively easy to kill compared to a five or six-year-old. So the the probability of them getting killed everybody's looking for it, and then especially you get to the rut, you just may as well, you proactively go out and teach them aware, it's going to get killed. You can pretty much count on it. And so what what we've tried to tell people with all the excitement, like from photos, and are passing it around, and here's this trophy, and that's all defined on where you're at, this 150, 60, 70, 80, and everybody's looking for that buck and they want to kill it. Of course they do. We want to create uh an awareness of here are three, four, five bucks that the hunting club and even the neighbors, even share it with the This is just important, as important of a but it's harvest restraint. We got to make sure everybody's on the same that we got to protect these and that everybody is gonna be better off. I mean, you know, for thousands of acres all you, if everybody got on the same page and the best bucks, difference between success failure. And it's only a couple deer. That that's the sensitivity of it. It's just a couple deer.

Speaker 1: 23:28

Yeah. And what I what I've seen working with clubs in the past is like uh many times, you know, the older age class bucks that are, you know, topped out at 115 inches, they're ignored, kind of, you know, I don't, I wouldn't say, you know, not but they're just kind of that that's not what people are Uh and when you when you I've seen success when you start to exclude some very, very high quality younger bucks, if say like, hey, also at the same time, we need you to take these older age class bucks that are uh inferior to what got, lower quality, that really helps to kind of offset each other. I mean, it's not going to be a 150-inch buck, but it's a buck to hunt. It's something to chase. You can pick you one out that you want to go harvest, like a wide six or something that has a lot of character. And I've seen a lot of guys be really, really happy with deer that were a fun hunt, uh, fun to chase, uh, and it of gives them something to do while they're holding off on three-year-old.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 24:37

Yeah. You know, I was just thinking about something It's um in the South, we would think of this as club rules versus state rules. But the state rules you get in the Midwest be a little bit different. But this would be like the club rules in the would be well, Bonner, I hear you, man. Yeah. That that big old six-year-old five-pointer, I hear you. I'm not wasting the one buck I can kill of our club rules on that. I'm gonna hold out for a trophy. In the South, that doesn't hold water can you can amend your club rule to say anybody, we want everybody to shoot those, and that take away from your one, you know, trophy deer every year. But Mariah, in the Midwest, what about in uh one buck states?

Moriah Boggess: 25:25

Yeah, you're you're severely limited. And uh I don't want to speak for you know all Midwestern states because I know a couple of them at least have But even dough harvest uh, you know, facilitated DMAP isn't available nearly uh as widespread in the as it is in the South. And so some of those issues that we're able to get like hey, you know, you mentioned you've mentioned before, Bonner, you know, having somebody on a club willing to shoot a lot of does, that's a very high high-value hunter. In the South, we use them. We say, hey man, here's here's a bunch of Dmap tags, know, go get them. Got them loose. But you can't do that in a lot of Midwestern states. And so in those states, yeah, you really have to getting more hunters on that property to to take those deer, you know, and uh kind of, I guess more so the way of like you just gotta invite your buddies and say, hey, this this big buck might be off limits. I'm chasing him, but here's, you know, you can shoot any one of these management bucks that um, you know, be your buck for the year for the state, obviously, but that's what you're able to hunt on this place. That's the only option, really.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 26:44

So what about this? What's your reply to this? Oh, this sounds good, you know, man, this really sophisticated, but dad gummit. I mean, I got into hunting and I just want to fun. I I don't want to have to go through cardiac every time I'm raising a scope to shoot a deer. I just want to have fun and it be more laid Well, Shaw's response to that.

Moriah Boggess: 27:09

I've got I've got two options for that person. Uh well, first off, first off, I would say objectives, like define your objectives and and if you truly just to be able to shoot anything, there's there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If it's your property and you make that decision, might be one option. The other option I'd say is just get good at being able to age to at least four and a half or so on the hoof. And if you feel somewhat confident that that looks a mature buck body-wise, you can make those be right 90% of the time.

unknown: 27:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:42

Yeah. For somebody that, you know, trophy quality doesn't matter as much. They want to have fun. They want their kids to have fun. Uh, they want to go every weekend and see deer and just really have a good time. Uh I think they need to know about the trade-offs, but I say absolutely, you know, and I I would agree, Mariah, you know, being able to confidently age a three-year-old buck, a buck, you know, once you get a a buck in the southeast, at to three and a half, four and a half years old, if you don't have trophy quality in mind, you know, absolutely have fun. Spend time with your family and your friends. Uh and I mean, that's fantastic. I mean, that's what we started preaching, you know. I mean, I guess that's close to 50 years ago now, really, quality deer management was three and a half years old old older, you know. Uh so if somebody says that to me, I'm like, absolutely, go ahead, have a great time. I love it.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 28:45

Just to recognize the consequence of that. That that that's what where we get in a buy you get frustrated is people wanting cake it too. You can't. I want to see a bunch of deer. I want to shoot every buck I see, and why am I not killing trophies? Well, something's got to give here in your And that that's one thing we do that I'm so we started doing is uh with properties that we manage, is we give them a confidential and survey before we start working with them. And so we tease apart some of these questions, you know, what is success for you? And and the data come back pretty clear that are is always, and that this would be a property. This would not be a property with three We're talking about 30 hunters, 40 or Is there will be a non-trivial amount of that say, I don't care about that. I'm here to have fun. I want to see deer, take kids, friends, We do want to shoot a bunch of deer. That's okay. And then you'll get the other extreme, and are there to produce and harvest trophies. So now what do you do when you have these two in the club? Well, somebody's got to give. Or we're gonna have to meet in the middle, both sides are gonna have to give up a little. And this is extreme, but hey, here's one of the answers. The the people who are the minority, if you feel strongly about this, you might need you a new club. Just go hunt somewhere else and be happy. Yep.

Speaker 1: 30:24

Yep. Birds of a feather flock together, you know, get in with that kind of fit what you want to do, your hunting style, that kind of deal. Uh, but but also, you know, we run into that a good bit, and that is where it gets hairy on, you know, management you know, uh, with those numbers of people that just really just want to have fun. They're like, I'm spending this money, I want to have time with my buddies and my kids. You know, that I that's what I hear more than anything. Uh, I want to get my wife in the stand a few times a year, or you know, uh that kind of deal. Uh and then you do have the absolutely hardcore guys that they're there for one thing and one thing only, and that really tough to manage for both. Uh, like you say, you kind of have to meet in the middle clubs like that.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 31:19

Yeah, and and it d w in situations like that, like everybody's satisfaction is The the only way you can make that better is a new club and saying, this is the way we're to do it. Make no bones about it. If you want to do it another way, you don't need to become a member of this club. Yeah. And then you'll get more like-minded people way.

Speaker 1: 31:48

Absolutely. But I also think like these a lot of clubs, they're uh it's not always the club. Sometimes it's the progression of the hunter. You know, a lot of the guys that we talk to now that are I want to take my grandkids hunting, I want to do to do that. Well, 20 years ago, they were the guy that was trophy or you know. And I think there is a uh you know a progression for hunters as as you kind of age and go through different stages, you maybe you don't ever change, but but I see a lot of times there's a progression of the hunter and they're what they and what they would like changes over time. Yeah.

Moriah Boggess: 32:36

about it. So I got a statement, and I wonder how this you guys, but I'm I'm pretty much convinced anymore pretty much every single wild population in the U.S. is high graded. Any disagreement?

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 33:02

Or really, really big private property. Um but yeah, in your general property in the U.S., I would say so. Um I think there's variation and severity of depending on hunter density, deer population, density. But yes, I I I do not disagree.

Moriah Boggess: 33:27

I would think that hunter density is probably, yeah, directly correlated with with high grading, if you could quantify it. Um Yeah, I I mean I feel like it's it's sort of a it's it's a byproduct of any kind of selective harvest. In other words, if we all just went to the woods and shot the always shot the first buck we saw, and and we still weren't shooting so many that they weren't through to maturity. In other words, we had a truly random buck harvest, statistically we shouldn't have high grading. But the fact that we we bring in our own biases because we're making assessments, and no matter how long been aging deer, you have to be cognizant constantly to not let the antler size or other covariance, other that might make you age that deer older or younger for whatever reason. You can't let those sway your judgment. And but they do like that that obviously happens. When your heart's pumping and that buck is walking in you're having to make a harvest decision, you're gonna be a little bit more likely to think he's older he's got big antlers. Because if you mess up or if you underage him and let walk by, you're gonna kick yourself, right? That's the logic, that's how you would justify it in moment. And so anyway, where where I'm going with that is I I we all probably hunt pretty high-graded populations. And yeah, I agree that I think there's probably some but even on the best properties, if we could truly know, I wonder, I bet there's still some high grading

Speaker 1: 35:06

Yeah, and state state law plays a little bit of role of a role in that. I I think under density is big, uh, but also, you know, kind of liberalization of bag limits, like Mississippi's, you one buck of choice on private land, you know, plus a few depending on what unit you're in. So, I mean, you can kind of do whatever you want in uh, but that's just, you know, an example, uh, at least for the Southeast. Uh, just where, you know, if you can kill four bucks a year, three, four bucks a year, depending on what state you're in, you know, it's real easy to to put a put a whooping on them. Like you say, those that are easier to see as well.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 35:52

Um not to get too sciencey here, but I'll I I say this. Get science-y on us. Um and I I'm gonna put some uh some pressure on our the the new deer lab, uh Jacob Dykes and and Eric Mitchell. Uh I'm gonna hand off this. I I've talked to them about the idea, but seems to get published uh with some additional data. But so I I'm really lucky that I went to school in in South Texas, and uh so I have access to a lot of ranch data for colleagues down there. And and so I got curious uh about this. And so I I was doing another analysis where I looking at within Mississippi from region to does the ratio of antler weight mass does it by region relative to body size? So as we said earlier, we know that antler varies by region, but does the ratio of antler size to body weight change? And kind of ecologically getting into that, kind of the the hypothesis was if you have more food and you can invest more in antlers, do they? Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So so deer are bigger or smaller from region to region. Are are the antlers, is the is the ratio of to body the same? Absolutely, they're bigger, but is the ratio the same? So I was like, uh, well, I wonder how it to South Texas. And so I went through and analyzed the data. Again, it's just making antler size relative to body size. And when I plotted those graphs, they they're on top of each other. In other words, they have the same ratio of antler production relative to body size, three years of age. And at three years of age, you know, if you don't understand that you're looking at harvest data, you go, you would go, well, dang, that is really interesting. It just so happens in Mississippi, when bucks bigger, they allocate less to antlers than they do in South Texas. But the real story is those data sets from those big South Texas ranches, they're not high They're only harvesting the best of the best, and they're harvesting those at six or seven or And in Mississippi, the best of the best to get harvested some at two, but usually And so it just makes it look like biologically you're dealing with a, you know, a dip antler growth type relationship, and it's It it's it's just getting back to Mariah, like you were saying, how widespread this is, is this happens over and over, and for a long time, the best bucks get killed, usually two years early.

Moriah Boggess: 39:03

Yeah. I I can think of, I mean, growing up in North Carolina, um, and I'm sure this is true for a lot of areas that like this, is small land holdings, heavily hunted, not many bucks get old. But golly, every buck that got old, you know, and I old, not even, four and a half, they would be like deer. And, you know, at the time it was like, man, we just grow big, big deer. But in in retrospect, understanding what I do looking back on it and even looking back through some those photos, those larger antler deer were there. Now, they wouldn't have rivaled Mississippi Delta deer, but they were there as two year olds. We had some really good two year olds. But those deer, in that level of harvest or that of harvest, the odds of them making it through were so low I would have had to be there for. For a long time. And then that would have been the buck everybody talked about, you know. And I in in in that situation, that buck might not be that rare, uh genetically all that rare, I should But on the landscape, he just doesn't make it

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 40:19

Yeah, I I I have participated in the high process. As have I. I have got a great example I use in uh in of a buck I was, you know, different time, I was 16 or 17 years old, and I shot a very much average buck. It was probably a, I don't remember a buck have scored in the high 120s, low 130s, like that. And this was before pulling the jawbone out, but just looking at photos of its body size or so uh, uh it would have been three and a half at oldest. And it was a great buck. Got a good picture on the tailgate, hold that up. But but when when I went through and calculated what it would have been at maturity, I mean that could have easily been a 160. But I shot him at 128, 132, you know, whatever it was. So so I'm not holier than thou here. I have I have done it too. But we just weren't, you know, that wasn't a where we were even thinking about managing for the buck population. It was just you take what you can get. You see a good one, you shoot. And most properties aren't like that now. I just think they underestimate that that's still going on to some degree. And there are so few bucks that are gonna end being that 150, 160, 170 and above that even if you don't realize you're doing it, you're it. Unless you're extremely careful.

Speaker 1: 42:03

Speaking of that, those are those are some of the the best best stories or or the stories that really snap your uh is talking to some older biologists that, you know, gone into club meetings. The club's been berating them, you know, we want 150-inch we want 160-inch deer. And then, you know, you can go through a list of harvest and with antler projections, you can be like, uh, Smith, you killed a boon and crockett deer this year, you and Billy Davis, and you just keep going down, you know, you killed a boon and crockett deer, and everybody's kind around. You just killed him two years too early. You know, when you look at those projections and those deer end up being 160, 170-inch deer, that'll turn your It's it's it hurts. It does.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 42:57

It hurts.

Speaker 1: 42:58

But they're great stories. I love hearing them.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 43:00

Oh, yeah. But but it it explains it very well how the works. Yeah.

Moriah Boggess: 43:09

far as wrapping all this up, I'm sitting here thinking for the average landowner, a couple takeaways in my and I want you guys to add to this, is just that there's obviously a whole there's several different levels can look at regulating buck harvest if they even at all on their property. And so we talked about obviously the very best being age-based, and then um antler potential combined with even be even better than that if you're if you're to be strategic about buck harvest. But maybe more realistically for most people is just age-based. Picking a threshold that, you know, uh an age three, five, um, three being on the low end, or a lot you can get them to four, and even best if you can get them to five or six. And if you can age those deer, just make the decision way. And then obviously the the easiest one to implement is those antler, antler points, antler uh criteria. And that's usually just how I present the landowners is like, hey, you know, you're gonna leave something on the table with all of these approaches. The the best of the best, what you leave on the table is simplicity in your hunting. So there's good and bad in all of it, and you just sort of have to pick which one's best for you, and it has to do with what you're willing to give up and what you want to get out of that.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 44:31

Uh I'm I'm obviously programmed different, but when I think of all the different combinations of beam, spread, points, and I'm I'm sitting thinking, okay, uh, a buck walks out, your hunters running through the scenario. What do I think the beam length is? What's the spread, number of points, green red light? I think, man, wouldn't it just be easier if that buck stepped out, you know, pretty sure a three-year-old. Need to let it walk. Or, yep, that is obviously a mature buck. So I'm gonna harvest it regardless because it's a mature buck. So some of that is all the gymnastics and you have to do on the spot when it's just antler uh regulation stuff, antler criteria. The other way of looking at that is just kind training yourself, and and you can do it with data. Like, well, how can I learn to do this? Well, we have YouTube now. We have lots of different books, lots, lots of different sources that are accessible to QDMA, NDA, they've got a great guide to help get going. But then a lot of it too can just be your data and then the bucks that are harvested on property or adjacent property, and then working with a biologist. Here was the photo of this buck, here's the the biologist aged it at three and a What do I see? What can I learn from that? And it it's not that hard once you just set your mind to trying to learn. It's not that hard.

Moriah Boggess: 46:11

I love that approach of of cross-checking. That's something that I you know I do every year just we get into aging season now. It's it's early fall. Looking back at bucks from last year and those that harvested and looking at jawbone ages. It's a great way.

Dr. Bronson Strickland: 46:29

And there will be some that fool you. I mean, I I there's one I'm thinking in in Mariah. Fool I don't yeah. No, it fooled you. It didn't fool me. Fools you last. Yeah. There was one that did just did not follow the script in in in terms of what it would look like. And I I believe it was a a buck harvested got the jawbone back, and it was a fully, mature buck. And on the hoof via photos, it didn't look a over three. happen.

Moriah Boggess: 47:06

Yeah. He was getting some plastic surgery or something. Yeah. He was looking real young. He had the good getting injections. All right. Well, if we don't have anything more to add to it, go ahead and shut it down. See people here next time. Thanks for listening to the Wildlife Investments Podcast. For more information on these topics or to see some of the projects our team is working on, follow us on and Facebook at Wildlife Investments or visit